Monday, 22 October 2012

Preamble: About IWWB and Mike Vinson

The purpose of this blog is to inform spiritual seekers of the history of Mike Vinson and the iswasandwillbe (referred to by the acronym of "IWWB") internet fellowship. 

I have taken the time to put all of this information on the internet with the intention of giving those who are interested "full disclosure." I am of the opinion that if we all took the time to look out for our fellow man, this world would be a much better place. 
If you see a hole in the ground, do you just walk around it and hope that nobody else falls in there and breaks an ankle? Or do you take the time to stick up a "danger ahead?" 
I have made the decision to go with option B, and so here is this blog.

Who and What is "IWWB?"


IWWB is a WWCoG (World-Wide Church of God) splinter cult-group that began in 1997 when Mike Vinson began to publish his papers on the internet, using the domain name of: http://www.iswasandwillbe.com

He has attracted many spiritual seekers, particularly those who are disenchanted and/or disenfranchised with mainstream Christianity and also, many ex-WWCoG members

Initially, he was aligned with the now deceased L. Ray Smith of bible-truths and used the internet footprint of Ray Smith to garner himself a following before eventually, ties with Vinson were severed by Smith over the now infamous and secretive "Revelation Commentary." Here is a screen grab, courtesy of "WayBack Machine" internet archive which shows Mike's papers, linked from Ray Smith's website. Note, click to enlarge:



Both Smith and Vinson are former WWCoG members, with Vinson admitting openly on his website, that he worked in the mail-analysis team as a Herbert Armstrong lemming.



So as you can see from the image above (source: HERE), Mike Vinson shares a spiritual heritage with WWCoG leaders such as Ronald Weinland, David C. Pack, Roderick C. Meredith and others.

Vinson also had his emails published on Ray Smith's "bible-truths" forum, a screen grab from 2005 shows this to be case:




Vinson's teachings are very palatable to the Christian burned out on tithing and hell-fire but be warned: Underneath the seemingly knowledgeable, biblically sound exterior is an underbelly of man-made doctrines and cult-style indoctrination.

What Does Mike Vinson and IWWB Teach?


In a nutshell, Vinson and his IWWB elders are "Universalist" and hold to an understanding of the bible that is a mixed bag of WWCoG, Gnosticism and fundamentalist right-wing Christian ideals. You will find strict adherence to fundamentalist doctrines such as young earth creationism and biblical inerrancy, mixed with various WWCoG doctrines such as forbidding birthdays and Christmas.

His teachings are an exercise in attempting to harmonize all of the bible from Genesis to Revelation and in pulling off such a feat, Vinson and his IWWB elders must resort to "spiritualizing" much of the Old-Testament whilst also insisting that other scriptures (particularly those from the New-Testament) are purely physical in their application. 

Essentially, Mike Vinson prescribes a method I describe as "pseudo-biblical academia." 
By this, I mean that Vinson goes to great lengths to uncover the root meanings of Hebrew and Greek words (academic, to a point) and then associate these words with so-called spiritual meanings and precepts. 

For instance, Vinson will attempt to tell you what colours in the bible mean, along with numbers and even animals. He believes the entire bible is a parable and that he has and his group alone, in the entire 7 billion people on earth, have been given the knowledge to know what is really being said. However, when pressed on particular points, Vinson will insist these are purely literal and cannot be taken in a figurative manner, and that to do so is to spit on Jesus Christ. Doctrines such as the aforementioned young-earth creationism and the inerrancy of the bible are but two that are seen as "untouchable" by Vinson and his elders. 

Moreover, Vinson dismisses all other congregations and movements as false, declaring that they are "of their father the devil" and further, he states that not a single Christian denomination has any of their doctrines correct, not a single one. 

Here is what Vinson explicitly states:
"Orthodox Christianity is contradiction. Every single doctrine they have is a contradiction of the word of God."
The above quote was taken from HERE.




So while Vinson says this in one breath, he also holds to many "orthodox" and "fundamentalist" beliefs, particularly those from the WWCoG. Evidence of this is seen by reading the Revelation commentary on this blog page or by visiting his IWWB web-page, linked to above.

What Was My Connection to IWWB and Mike Vinson?


I was involved with Mike Vinson and IWWB from approx. 2004 until 2010. Like many others, I was drawn to his web-page and teachings due to my disillusionment with Christianity and also, like many people, I only happened upon the IWWB website due to Vinson's affiliation with L. Ray Smith.

During that time (approx. 6 years), I sent and received countless emails and chat messages along with Skype sessions with not only Mike Vinson, but also those within the IWWB fellowship. I shared intimate details with Mike Vinson during this time and without a doubt, he became a real spiritual mentor to me - a person I could trust and from whom I could receive advice and counsel on a range of matters, spiritual or otherwise.

While Vinson can be a very affable and engaging man who is truly genuine about sharing his faith, he will also dismiss anyone, at anytime, if he comes to understand that they differ with him on a matter of doctrine. I observed this over the 6 years I was associated with Vinson however and noted that whenever he removed a person from the fellowship, it was never announced or dealt with publicly, but rather secretly, in a kind of cloak and dagger manner.

During late 2010, I observed a renewed zeal on Vinson's part with respect to putting people out of the fellowship who did not hold to his understanding of Galatians 4:9-10 which speaks about "days, months, times and years." This dis-fellowshipping was done in a secretive and underhanded manner and was only ever disclosed when one pushed the matter and asked about "such and such," where they were, and why they were no longer emailing or a part of the activity of the group.

I looked into Vinson's rhetoric and arguments concerning this doctrine during this time, and I soon came to see that Vinson held to the teachings of groups such as WWCoG, Jehovah's Witness and others who believe that an event such a birthday, Christmas, Easter, wedding anniversaries or Halloween are strictly off the cards for a true Christian disciple. 


In the minds of such believers, people who engage in these events are glorifying themselves and making a mockery of Jesus and the Apostle's teaching. I had known for sometime that Vinson held to this belief but generally speaking, he was not at all militant or domineering about applying such a doctrine to those around him. 

But alas, all of that had now changed and Vinson was demanding absolute conformity and "group-think" as a prerequisite for ongoing fellowship. In fact, Vinson even tried to shore up his arguments by bookending this "no birthdays" doctrine with a quote from St Paul "be of one mind" - Phillipians 2:1-8. I was to find out later that this is a popular tactic lifted straight out of the WWCoG.

I confronted Vinson about this teaching, and how it had been lifted straight out of the WWCoG lexicon. I inquired how he could say in one breath that: "every single doctrine they have is a contradiction of the word of God" and then in the next, advocate for another church's doctrine word for word and line upon line. I attacked his arguments head on and waited to see whether Vinson would also dis-fellowship me, a person he had known for 6 years and who had shared his life with this man.

In response, Vinson threw up weak and prejudicial arguments and attempted to emotionally manipulate me using a recent event in my life. When I saw this, I was shocked and again, asked Vinson to explain his actions. He would not, and could not and in his second reply to me, simply copied and pasted screes and screes of scripture with his own commentary below each one, implying that he knew what the bible truly meant and that I should simply trust his judgment on the matter. I should be clear - he did not address my arguments at all.

When I again responded (to Vinson's second response) and challenged him about his arguments, he simply refused to reply any longer. There was no reply whatsoever. 


In short, after 6 years of ongoing friendship, I was now seen as a detractor and a heretic who had been snared by Satan. Mike Vinson, in his mind, had given me my supposed "2 admonitions" (Titus 3:10) and would deal with me no more. 

In short, I had been "shunned" and "dis-fellowshipped" by Mike Vinson.

However, Vinson then had his lackeys ("elders") attempt to straighten me out and in short, the standing order from these younger men was that I could remain a part of the fellowship provided I did not under any circumstances bring this issue up for discussion. 


The entire episode was amazing to me, as I had never once discussed the issue prior to this at all. I had always seen this entire thing as a matter of conscience, not a legalistic no-no. 

However, despite all of this, Vinson still would not engage or communicate with me whatsoever.

Life After IWWB


It would be fair to say that I was emotionally scarred after this encounter. I had a friendship one day, and the very next I did not. What had changed? A simple admission on my part that I took part in birthdays and wedding anniversaries. Vinson had never asked me whether I did or not, and I had never, until that time, offered the information to anyone.

However, after I had collected myself, I began researching the issue further and came to see, among many things, that Vinson had a history of this kind of behavior and that in reality, he is nothing more than a cult-leader, and that IWWB was simply another WWCoG splinter group. It was shocking to come to the knowledge that I had been a part of a cult-group and it drove me to reach out to others who had been cut asunder because of the very same issue.

During my research, I went back and re-read about an incident that occurred with Ray Smith, whereby Vinson had declared himself "sinless." Ray Smith's telling of the even was eerily similar to my own, with the exception that I did not have an internet following and/or the clout to demand that Vinson pull his head in, and repent.

This re-telling can be found HERE.






It is by no means light reading and I will be up-front at this point and let you know that I personally no longer hold to a literal understanding of the bible at all, so all of the claimed biblical authority in that article (from both Smith and Vinson) really means nothing to me any more.

What is worthwhile in reading the above is to observe what Smith says about how Vinson conducted himself, the character of the man and his responses when called on his obvious errors. These are in-fact, virtually the same as my own and worthy of your consideration should you be in fellowship with IWWB or considering the matter.


Conclusion


The original Revelation commentary is available here, on this blog, with the intention of providing "full disclosure" to those who are genuine seekers of the truth.

It is my belief that Mike Vinson wants this swept under the carpet and when I recently contacted him about the matter, he again refused to respond.

Probably the most damning thing in the commentary is the belief that Vinson has gained dominion over "sin" and that he "no longer sins." Here is what Vinson said:

"...we NO LONGER COMMIT SIN" (Chapter 22, page 13). 
Vinson, after being taken to task by Smith, claims he repented of this doctrine but only recently, in 2010, and again, in 2012 he repeated the doctrine again, albeit playing semantics with it. You can hear Vinson in the following video:






There are many other videos up on the iwwbEXPOSED YouTube channel. You can hear Vinson ridiculing his family members, claiming to be without sin, telling his disciples he is worthy of "double honor" and many, many other such nonsensical things.


Contact With Me


If you wish to get in touch, you may do so by commenting here on the blog or visiting other websites where I have taken the time to give those who are genuine truth-seekers, all of the information about this man and his movement.
If you are a cult-member who wants to defend this man, I really could care less. You are better off directing your voice elsewhere!

Other Social Media Links


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77 comments:

  1. I read that Vinson says that the devil and the fallen angel also receive salvation. If salvation is immortality at the resurrection then how would salvation apply to them. No angel, righteous or fallen has an inheritance with Jesus. God created angels to be ministering spirits to those who are heirs of salvation so angels are not heirs of salvation. The sacrifice of Jesus is for human beings only.

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    1. Hi there, thanks for your comment.

      Yes, what you say about Vinson is true. He does believe that "Satan" and his troupe of fallen angels are going to repent in the future. Vinson actually believes he and his IWWB disciples are going to judge these angels and others in the "Lake of Fire." He also teaches that those who speak against him and his group (he calls them 'dissidents' and 'detractors') will actually come and bow down at his feet during this time and beg him for mercy as Joseph's brothers did in the Genesis account.

      Vinson likes to put himself in the narrative of the bible stories and imagine that it is all about him and his group. He believes that when others take him to task on a matter, that he is being persecuted for holding fast to the truth.

      Anyway, regarding your specific points, the view you have expressed would certainly be the orthodox viewpoint. I don't busy myself with biblical doctrine or attempting to establish absolute truth from a scriptural perspective any-more. That, to me, seems to be an exercise in futility and vanity more than anything. Cheers!

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  2. Many people who have followed Vinson came out of the Worldwide Church of God led by Herbert W. Armstrong. All of these people have made the same mistake again, following a man instead of Christ. To prove Vinson is wrong you must know the scripture, to prove Armstrong wrong you must know the scripture. Joseph was a type of Christ, not Mike Vinson.
    As perverted as Mike Vinson is it may only be a matter of time before he says that he is the messiah. I have given up on all men and look to Jesus and through him have contact with the Father and have no need that any man teaches me. Has your bad experience with those of Vinson's type ended your first love? I have experienced what you have and learned not to go to men but to God. Has your experience ended your faith? Or was your faith in the wrong one? Even though I was crushed to find my idol Herbert W. Armstrong a liar and false prophet, I never gave up the belief that there was indeed a God. I went to this God I did not know and asked Him to teach me and I would believe; that was 20 years ago and it was the best thing I have ever done.




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    1. Hello there, thanks for the comment. You are right about many from the WWCG following Mike Vinson. He even states that many people in his fellowship are: "former world-widers..."

      I understand what you are saying about proving Vinson wrong from the scriptures and there was a time when I did just that. However, after Vinson sidelined me, I began to look at the scriptures themselves because, much of what passed for "truth" is coming straight from this collection of writings. I asked myself: "who wrote the bible?" "Is it accurate?" "what do we know about the accounts - are they reliable?"

      Simply put, I began to hold the scriptures to the standards that the scriptures seek to impose on me. My research has revealed that the scriptures are neither historically accurate, nor are they internally consistent. In many cases, there simply isn't defined authorship and what one reads, when one reads an account, amounts to "hearsay."

      Yes, this research was kick-started by the callous way in which Vinson treated me. And for that, I am grateful that I had the experience with IWWB and Mike Vinson that I did because it has bought me to a place of knowledge that I was previously ignorant of.

      Thanks!

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    2. u all are blind because God does not want everyone to know the truth of God,furthermore Jesus said my word are spiritual, all u see is in the natural,God has to open up your spiritual eye if not u will never understand in this life time,

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    3. thanks for the comment above. I see you bought no sound reasoning to the table, just more bold proclamations about things that cannot be verified.

      You are telling everyone here they are "all blind" and you are claiming to speak for God. Wow, arrogant much? If you have the truth, then why do you and Mike and the rest of you need to keep rehashing doctrine all the time? I don't see Jesus ever having to go back and re-jig his teachings.

      The fact that you clowns think and believe you are the elect is damning enough but to go about publicly proclaiming it? Again, your ego is out of control. Maybe first, IWWB needs to get its own act together?

      Some of the IWWB-ites might want to first start with getting in shape physically. The bible has a lot to say about gluttony. Mike Vinson and Steve Crook's wives might want to start first???

      But anyway, you obviously have your head buried so far up Mike's ass and his labyrinth of biblical bullshit you can't see much else. I feel sorry for you buddy. All the best

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  3. In 1993 I had an experience. I came to see that I did not need to keep the old covenant but when I spoke about this to other WCG people I was put out of the church for 4 months and required by the pastor to recant what I had said. The pastor and I had several meetings that did not go well and he said that he would "mark" me if I would not recant. I did not give in and held my ground and unknown to me the WCG was already making plans to change their doctrine. After 4 months I did return and saw the 1995 video of Tkach senior that fell far short of what I came to understand but it rattled the people big time. I stopped going in 1995 because I saw that the church was going back into main stream false Christianity. Scripture to me now makes sense and is accurate because I do not rely on any man to teach me. You sound as though you have given up, that you think scripture, God, Jesus and everything else is just fiction. Is this true? If so then Vinson and his master have won. It is my hope that you will not give up nor continue to subscribe to the points you made in your response but rather go to God and do as I did 20 years ago. I confessed my ignorance and in sincerity humbled myself and asked God to teach me and that I would believe. Gods spirit is our teacher and no man. Things you say now that make no sense and seem to be hearsay can be made clear. We have both been through a lot in our experience with men but have you considered an experience with God. I am glad to see your blog exposing Vinson for the false teacher he is but do not use him to judge scripture or God because Vinson is not of God.

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    1. Hi, thanks for your reply and I appreciate your personal experiences. I also appreciate that for you, the bible holds the truth.

      As I said, the bible to me is the writings of men. When you take the time to look at its historical context, when it was written, who wrote it and the internal contradictions that exist within the text, it becomes clear that the bible cannot be the work of a divine, all-knowing and all loving God. To me, the bible contains truths, but those truths are not true because they are in the bible. They are true because they are true.

      I am free, and I do not need a man or a book to guide me or to teach me. I make my own path and I decide my own course in life. That is what freedom is. As long as one is shackled to an ancient text, one is never truly free.

      Lastly, Mike Vinson has not "won" at all :) From my angle, he seems to be stuck in some kind of ground-hog day loop, spouting out the same clap-trap week in and week out.
      He believes he has some kind of special relationship with Jesus but in truth, he is so dogmatized and brainwashed by his interpretation of bible, that in truth, he is having conversations with himself believing they are with a divine being. I feel sorry for him but he is beyond help.

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    2. Good for you. I too used to believe in the teachings of Smith and Vinson. One Day I asked God to reveal his word to me because the bible clearly states "Ask and you shall receive" and I do believe that God (or whatever you can call it) showed me that "The Bible" is not of God, but of man. No God could be that sadistic, and cruel to those "He" said he loved. There are lots of great stories in the bible, but there are also great stories in other books. I no longer believe in a "Biblical God" or for that matter a God period. It is nice to hold on to some of those ideas but the more you read and think about the entire idea of "God" it's nothing more than Santa Clause for adults. If your good when a child then you get rewarded with presents. If bad you get a lump of coal. When your an adult you get rewarded with the same thing "presents" the only difference is that the lump of coal gets ignited, and you burn in hell.

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    3. Hi there, thanks for sharing that, I really appreciate it.

      I have met many people through this blog, and my FaceBook page who were once avid followers of Mike Vinson and Ray Smith, but who went further in their search for truth than either of those two men were prepared to go.

      Sadly, both Mike and Ray elevated the bible to the status of a "paper idol" believing that contradictions only exist because one hasn't found the correct approach to unravel them. Mike in particular, is woefully ignorant of biblical scholarship, and historical method and relies on fundamentalist apologists such as Ken Ham, Wayne Grudem and others.

      If the bible were "true" then at the very least, it would be able to withstand the internal checks/balances it demands of the reader. This is where it falls apart though because when you apply the standards to the bible, that it seeks to impose on others, you realise it is a fallible and very human book, and not the work of a divine and loving being.

      Thanks again for your comment.

      Cheers!

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  4. Hello, I would like to know if you knew a man named Jim Ramsay. Jim was a member of Vinson's group, do you know if he still is. I was a friend of Jim's a few years ago but when he joined up with Vinson we drifted apart. I hope that if he is still with Vinson he will wake up like you did.

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    1. Hi there. I don't "know" Jim Ramsay, but he did reply to a comment I left on the IWWB U-Stream page. This is what Jim had to say: "Get a life. Rather than trash someone else, why don't you just teach "your truth". You obviously are bearing a grudge. Sour grapes don't attract anybody but vermin."

      I'm sure Jim is a nice enough guy, but it always amazes me how thin-skinned people within IWWB are. They routinely trash those who have left, other ministries and of course, orthodox Christians. I'd suggest you contact Jim on FaceBook if you want to get in touch with him. Go to:
      facebook.com/jim.ramsay.31

      I take it you've since left the group? Got anything you'd like to share? Love to hear of your experiences, if you are so inclined.

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  5. I have never been a part of Vinson's group. When Jim Ramsay first told me about it I tried to caution him but only made him angry. Jim is very intelligent and this is what always surprises me about people that get involved in groups like Mike Vinson. I was burned several times but learned a lesson and that is to never follow a man. Jim Ramsay came out of the Worldwide Church of God and then went into Vinson. All he did was exchange one deceiver for another.
    I still say the best and perhaps only way to find God and His truth is to seek God on your own and rely on God to teach by His spirit as scripture says. I know certain men over the centuries have changed scripture to fit their own ideas but this problem can be overcome. There are thousands of Mike Vinson's out there but only one God. Thanks.

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    1. Hi, thanks again for the comment. So Jim was another "former world-wider?" It seems Vinson has attracted many, many former WWCG members and this is what led me to label IWWB as a WWCG splinter group.

      I think at one time, there may have been some very intelligent people associated with Mike Vinson but after he culled a good portion of folks over his spurious "days, months, times and years" fallacy, he only really seems to be attracting doe-eyed acolytes.

      From first-hand experience, many of these people appear to lack critical thinking skills and are anything but "intelligent." That's not meant as an insult, just a statement of observation. A few of them I have had contact with have had trouble with spelling and appear to be borderline illiterate.

      I think Vinson plays on this with his pseudo biblical scholarship approach and I am wondering if many of the folks aren't clued up enough to really understand what it is they are being taught. Vinson's own sons have challenged him and due to this, Vinson declared that they are "not part of the the body anymore."

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  6. Vinson seems to use many of the same tactics as Herbert Armstrong. If you did not agree and fall in line with Armstrong's teachings you were put out of fellowship and marked, which means that you lost your salvation and were going to the lake of fire. This worked with the vast majority of the people in the worldwide church but it is Satan's best work because if Satan can deceive the top dog all the other dogs will follow and as the old saying goes, if you are not the lead dog the view never changes. I am glad that you came to see Vinson for what he is but to expose him you must use the truth against his lies, prove Vinson is a liar. If I could help you to do this please let me know.

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    1. Correct about Vinson, he is indeed a Herbert W Armstrong mini-me.

      I have exposed Mike Vinson as a fraud using his own words against him. In every case, he proverbially hangs himself with his very own doctrines. He says, in one breath that every single doctrine of the Christian church is a contradiction but then he will quote popular Christian apologists when it suits his agenda. He also makes use of select WWCG doctrines that he still holds onto.

      On top of that, his biggest flaw seems to be his propensity to WAY overstate his position. For example, rather than just say that he believes people hate him, he says that people want to slap him on the face and "literally physically crucify us..."

      Of course that is a ridiculous statement but it exposes Vinson's irrational personality and his inability to handle legitimate critique.

      If you wish to expose Vinson from another angle, please be my guest.

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  7. This Mike Vinson fellow finds his fulfillment in having a following after himself and this indicates his own inner weakness as a man. Vinson builds himself up by tearing others down and this provides an ego boost for him to cover his own failure as a man. Vinson feeds off of the admiration of his followers as a vampire needs blood. It seems that almost all these cult type leaders have the same problem as Diotrephes. Mike sets himself up as another mediator between God and man when scripture plainly says there is only one, Jesus Christ. I believe Vinson is mentally ill and completely devoid of the holy spirit but filled with the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.

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    1. Hi, thanks for the comment. I totally agree on what you said above. L Ray Smith, a universalism teacher who was once affiliated with Vinson told me in email that: "Mike's one vanity is to be seen as a great spiritual leader."

      Ray knew Vinson personally for many, many years, even hosting bible-study conferences together and so I take that statement of his to be a pretty spot on assessment of the man.

      I'm not sure if Vinson is "mentally ill" but he certainly isn't doing himself any favors by the way he carries on. He alienates his family, and others whenever they state a position he doesn't agree with. He even admitted recently on a study that not a single person who has left his fellowship has come back so clearly, his manner of dealing with people isn't working.

      Anyway, thanks for the comment.

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    2. I was the very first person that was removed from the church and then came back. I thought it was strange that people were so surprised...like, wasn't the goal for Satan to destroy me? Six months later i was removed again.

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  8. If this Vinson guy teaches universal salvation then why does anyone need him or any other so called minister. Since every one will receive salvation why not just live your life any way you want. I could murder, rape and steal all my life and even curse God to His face and still receive salvation, so why would I need a Mike Vinson? What reason is there to follow him or anyone else?

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    1. Correct, Vinson does teach universalism. Although, I might add, from my experience in UR, there are many tangents and streams of this belief.

      Vinson's particular angle is that yes, all will be saved but only a few will qualify as "first-fruits" or "the elect." These "elect" will apparently be held in much higher regard than "Joe average."

      Anyway, Vinson earnestly believes he and his band of acolytes are that elect. Vinson does teach that everyone will indeed be saved, but that he and his cult will be a part of the agency through which all people will be saved. He teaches that people who have spoken against him will one day come and bow down at his feet and know at that time, that God loved him more than they loved them.

      He also says that he is being persecuted and put through tribulation because he is like a mini Jesus Christ and his sacrifices are likewise, for the sins of the world.

      So to answer your question - you apparently follow Mike Vinson if you want to be part of the spiritual elite, the "Navy Seals" of the saviour operation that will be carried out by Jesus.

      As I've said many times prior, I no longer believe any of this kind of thing and it's incredibly amusing to me now, to look back upon this stuff and wonder at how on earth it was that I got involved with the likes of Mike Vinson!

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    2. Hi, here is a video where Vinson explicitly states his position about Christians and his IWWB group:

      http://youtu.be/kEY4Lgih71s

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    3. it sounds like u still want to be a part of it, if u are a christian what ever that is why are u bashing mike Vinson

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    4. yeah mate, I really want to be a part of Mike Vinson's homosexual Jewish zombie appreciation society - you got me! LOL.

      I don't think so. It's called helping other people by making them aware of the cult that is IWWB.

      My question to you - why are you commenting here? You want to help me out do you? You want to help expose Mike?

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  9. Would you share with us what your beliefs are?

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    1. Hi, I'm not sure I can answer your question with one or two lines. I don't hold to any "orthodox" views and I'm not involved with organized religion or any other type belief system such as Buddhism or Hinduism.

      I'm probably best defined as an agnostic, which is to say, I don't personally believe that one can really "know" specifics about our origins, where we go after we die or the nature of God and the divine. I think at it's most basic level, life is about learning lessons and understanding who we are as people. Anything beyond that, in my opinion is just speculation.

      However, I do believe in some kind of divine construct or higher power. If you wanted me to define that specifically, as in name its attributes, or recite something this higher being wants you or I to know, I'm sorry, but I simply wouldn't be able to do it nor do I think that's even plausible.

      Mike Vinson has used my position against me by stating to others that because I no longer hold to biblical inerrancy and no longer accept the God of the bible, that therefore, Satan has truly blinded me and I have an evil spirit at work within me.

      I find those kinds of statements so terribly intellectually lazy and they only serve to reinforce my position that Vinson is a cult-leader.

      Anyway, hopefully I've answered your question sufficiently.

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  10. Thank you for your answer.

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  11. Hi,
    It seems your reasons for leaving IWWB were more general than you led us to believe in your article. As an agnostic, you'd have left or been ex-communicated from 99% of Christian churches. I don't necessarily follow Mike's birthday, anniversary... doctrine, but everything he teaches is based on his Scriptural interpretations and you have clearly strayed away from anything scriptural. Not arguing for or against his teachings, but that you have already denounced scriptures altogether makes your blog pretty pointless to any who care for Christ and his teachings.

    My apologies for probably offending you, but your article now seems like more of a rant than an actual exposition of any of Mike's teachings. This probably won't make it to your page since I don't see a single comment that criticizes your article, which tells me they don't make the cut. I'm sorry you had a bad personal experience with Mike, but this should be called myIWWBexperience, not IWWBexposed.

    -R

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    1. Sorry to disappoint you but I'm more than happy to publish comments, negative ones included. Did it perhaps occur to you that maybe, I've not had a negative comment thus far? I guess not. Your casual ill-informed assumption doesn't surprise me, given the IWWB-apologetic slant in your comment.

      Now, onto your weird post. Yes, I am NOW an agnostic but I was not when I was a part of Vinson's cult. So, I'm not sure what you think that has to do with anything but it seems like you're saying "well, you're now an agnostic so this blog no longer has merit." Using the same logic, we could also say that people who leave cults and who no longer hold to the beliefs of the cult they were in, are just ranting as well?

      Then you go onto say that Vinson's teachings are based on his interpretations of scripture. Right - so what does that prove exactly??? Nothing. All of the churches that Vinson rails against are also based on scripture. Again, I fail to see any logical point in what you are saying? Is there one?

      How about you do me a favor at this point? Go read the most recent blog post (titled Update 2013) and then, you explain to me how it is that Vinson, who claims he is nothing like an orthodox Christian church, and who doesn't "go above that which is written" can say and do the things he has done.

      Hope I'm not offending you but it seems the only person ranting here is you "R." If you want to defend Vinson, that's fine but I'm not interested in entertaining it here. But if you can come directly to the point about the double-standards this man has dealt in, then lets hash it out.

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    2. Me, Rant? naah, I was merely making a point. I am just curious as to who your target audience here is? Maybe just people that have had similar experiences as you? It's unclear.

      If I were trying to expose a lawyer as a fraud, I would use the law to do it. Now you can expose a Christian leader by his actions, sure, but even the Apostle Peter strayed away at very critical times. This alone just won't do.

      But if you truly want to expose Mike (i.e. lawyer), you'll need to provide scriptures (i.e. law) that he is contradicting to do it, But you cannot do this because you have already denounced the scriptures altogether. Hopefully this anology helps you understand my point here, If you still think this is a "weird" post then not much more I can say.

      I have no affiliation to Mr. Vinson or his website. The whole celebrating days thing caught me a bit by surprise as well, but I don't fellowship enough or at all to even be noticed let alone ex-communicated. I do however, believe that Mr. Vinson has a lot of scriptural knowledge despite any personal shortcomings. It's a shame your experience with Mike (a mere man) severed you from Christ completely, which is why I will never put my trust on any man. Hope you can one day see past this experience and go back to scripture, if it is God's will.

      Peace.

      P.S. speaking of, Your condescending attitude is very reminiscent of Mr. L. Ray Smith. Another man with great scriptural knowledge but definitely can use some work on his message delivery. Not surprising since you seem to reference him a lot to prove your experience is not a one-off.

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    3. OK, I'll address some of your questions, even though these have been answered in detail on the blog.

      Who is my target audience? As is spelled out clearly on the "about me" - This blog is for those considering fellowship with this man and his ministry, or who may already be joined to the group. Is that unclear? I fail to see how.

      You then make a fallacious analogy by placing scripture in the context of the judicial system. Geez... Do I likewise need to know the Koran and refute the Koran, with the Koran, if I am debating a Muslim? Do I also refute the Jehovah's Witness's with the Watchtower publication? Do I need to be familiar with Fred Phelps teachings to refute the Westboro Baptist bigots? Your argument and analogy is circular and it's the oldest trick in the apologist book.

      I don't need to refute Vinson with the bible and if I did, he would simply come back and say that my understanding or my quotations were out of context of some such thing. I don't need to thump the bible to see and know that he has lied about other people, trash talked his own family, spoken about things that allegedly took place in the bible that are not grounded in anything within the bible itself and many of the other things he and his so-called elders have done.

      Interestingly you say you won't ever put any trust in a man but by swallowing the bible, you've just defeated your own argument. Men wrote the bible, that's a fact. Which men exactly, we don't actually know (there are no originals and authorship is many times, ambiguous or outright anonymous) and that's one of the reasons I no longer hold to biblical inerrancy.

      No offense, but again, if you want to simply thump the bible and make faith statements, that's all well and good but that's not where I am any more. My experience with Vinson taught me that thumping the bible is a road to strong-delusion and puffed up self-righteousness. Mike's appalling treatment of brothers and sisters within the fellowship simply served for me, as the kick in the pants I needed to question the entire bible itself.

      BTW, my condescension is only ever used when I feel a post is deserving of it. So I guess you reaped what you sowed? If it's offending you, take it to the Lord in prayer, Hallelujah!

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  12. Hi, I have gone through the same sort of growing process and I have come to see it for myself as a sort of an unfolding process. I hope you well and much peace.

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    1. Hi there, thanks for your comment. I know EXACTLY what you mean when you say "growing process." IWWB and my experiences with Mike Vinson were very much a growing process.

      One thing I can say for sure is that an older man from the South of America who is a former WWCG acolyte and who surrounds himself with doting young men, who cannot tolerate opposing views, who rails against his own family for not holding to his dogmatic views, who trash talks people for differences of opinion and who lies on a regular basis and lastly, who teaches and preaches that he has the truth to the exclusion of all others is about the furthest thing you can get from truth there is. Shame it took me 6 years to realize this but now, I have the experiential knowledge.

      You may be interested to know that there are a bunch of us former IWWB people who now think for ourselves rather than holding to the views of a select group of people who inhabited the ancient middle east some 2000 years ago. A truth seeker has to eventually question the bible itself and when you do, you realize that the bible cannot live up to the standards it imposes on others.

      Cheers and I encourage you to keep thinking for yourself!

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  13. Vinson says that Satan and the demons will have salvation. I thought salvation was receiving everlasting life and Satan already has this. Hebrews says salvation is for mankind not for angels.

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    1. Yes, that's true what you say about Vinson. He does indeed teach that Satan and his angels will be granted salvation. Also, that's very sharp eyed of you to spot that scripture in Hebrews. Nicely done! Have you aired this with Vinson? I dare say he's got a quick comeback that would involve at least 2-3 pages of rhetoric about how he's right and you just don't have the mind of Christ on the issue!!!

      Further to what you say, Vinson claims Satan is God's dog on a chain and that child molestations, rapes, sodomy, paedophilia and more are actually God sending these "evil spirits" specifically to carry out said deeds. In Vinson's mind, there is no room for men to just be animals and/or do crazy stuff. No - it's all an intricate spiritual matrix with God as the divine architect. And he thinks I'm crazy? LOL.

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  14. It seems that sin can kill a human being but cannot kill an angel so how can salvation even apply to angels. I refuse to believe that God created evil but Vinson says free will is a lie and God makes all do evil. This seems to be against everything God is trying to do. Repentance and the sacrifice of Jesus means nothing because there is this wonderful lake of fire that will burn everyone and change them all so God will accept them. This means you do not need Jesus just that lake of fire. What a crock!!!!

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    1. Christ is th e author of our faith.. he lives in us and changes us through his spirit... seems to be necesary to change carnal man.. the Lake fo Fire is the fire of that very same spirit now given to those who need that same changing

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    2. I'm not sure your reply really helps explain the position that Lee has put forth. You say "Christ is the author of our faith." If you are an IWWB disciple, I would have to disagree here and say that no, Mike Vinson is the author of your faith.

      You say "he lives in us and changes us through his spirit..." How exactly? I see no evidence of this "spirit" in the life of Mike Vinson. There is a man who lies about his family, patronizes and maligns others and who hides behind a his victim mentality when he is called out on his double-standards and hypocrisy. What evidence do YOU have that the spirit of a dead Jew is living inside of the members of the IWWB group???

      You then say, "the Lake of fire is the fire of that very same spirit..."
      Again, evidence? You are just asserting a position that has been fed to you by father Vinson. Why did you even bother posting here? Seems to be an exercises in futility. You haven't addressed Lee's comment at all and you haven't swayed me one iota with sound reasoning or evidential standards.

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  15. Hi there Lee. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

    You've made some excellent observations there, including the hypocritical notion that Mike Vinson uses about Satan and the angels receiving salvation. You made some great points there!

    Mike Vinson's marionette, Mitch Kuhn (an IWWB elder) says that he began to question his orthodox interpretation of the bible because one day, he had a dream about Satan being saved. As though, whatever his subconscious mind cooked up, must be the voice of God? It seems the more ludicrous the notion, the higher the probability that Mike Vinson and his IWWB fellowship will teach it.

    Agreed also on the doctrine that Vinson teaches about God causing every single evil deed in history. When you stop and think about that, such a doctrine makes God a co-conspirator and an accomplice to inhuman acts such as child rape, bestiality, stabbings, muggings, genocide, war crimes and much, much more. As a former member of this cult, I used to believe this and I can tell you now, it did not give me anything approaching "peace" but rather fear.

    Vinson teaches this doctrine because he wants an easy rationalization for the cruelty of life and more importantly, it's because he's found a few easy proof-texts within the bible. I guess in his mind, with that combination, he's assured himself and his listeners that he's onto a biblical winner.

    Thanks Lee!

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  16. The most common error I see is that people put their trust in a man, a human being, rather than God.
    From what I understand, the scripture is taught to us by Gods Holy Spirit without the need for any man.

    KJV John 14:26
    26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    KJV 1 John 2:27
    27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If I understand the scriptures above; it is saying that we do not need a man to teach us; we need the Holy Spirit to teach us. Vinson and all other preachers have taken over the job of the Holy Spirit and have set themselves up as another teacher between God and man. If the man people believe is deceived then all his people are deceived too. If I were a preacher I would tell people to go to God and ask God to teach them, God will not lie but men can and do. If salvation is the awesome gift of God to each of us why would we want to turn over that gift to some man who claims he is Gods minister. All these churches set up some man or woman who is in charge of your personal salvation. I think God is just waiting for people to come directly to Him and eliminate the MIDDLE MAN. This would take faith and personal application to study and prayer with a heart that seeks God with a hunger and a thirst. How many people are willing to do that?

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  17. Thanks again for commenting Lee. Can I ask how it is you came across Mike Vinson's IWWB website? You seem far to informed to qualify as another IWWB cult member.

    Agree 100% with you on not needing a mediator such as Mike Vinson to know God. Interestingly, there was a time when Mike himself taught that. Now, his new teaching is that his IWWB fellowship is "THE" body of Christ. Note the definitive article "THE."
    That is intentional on Vinson's part, make no mistake about that.

    Vinson also says that the litmus test concerning doctrine, is for him and his "counsel of elders" to confer and decide the matter. Whatever these men deicide, apparently, that is how God also views the matter. So in truth, Vinson promotes a sectarian version of the gospel.

    When he has been questioned about this, he has attempted, rather poorly I might add, to rationalize his way out of it. He claims that one does not have to be a part of his fellowship group to be a part of the body of Christ. However, only 12 months or so ago, he named and shamed his own son Wayne and arrogantly declared that he was "not part of the body anymore."

    Men like Mike Vinson are a dime a dozen. While ever people are too lazy to think for themselves, Mike Vinson and his IWWB cult will prosper. Hearts on fire and brains on ice seems to describe the acolytes of IWWB.

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  18. I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God and left fellowship in 1993. While I could see the problems with WCG and all churches I never lost my belief in the existence of God. Many of the WCG people left the church and went to different groups still looking for a man to lead them. I did a lot of research on the internet of many churches and found the same crap that was in WCG just with a different bend to it. I was told about Vinson by Jim Ramasy, who was a friend in WCG. Jim had already joined Vinsons group and was, I think, trying to get me to join too. I checked out the IWWB site and wrote in with questions but was not impressed. Vinson does have some things right but that does not make up for the things that are clearly wrong. All churches have some degree of truth but have more error than truth. I came to see that the only way to find the truth was to go to the source. If a person will humble themselves with all sincerity and confess ignorance to a loving God and ask that God to teach them I believe He will. What I have learned I do not demand that others believe and I feel no calling to preach. Each person must have their own relationship with God but the things God teaches will all be the same. I believe that all organized churches big and small have made the same mistake, human leaders, human teachers who want a following after themselves and set themselves up as a connection to God that everyone in their church must go through to get to God. A one on one relationship with God is the only way and is what Jesus gave his life to provide. What all this means to me is that God teaches by divine revelation just as He taught the prophets and Apostles. This way of teaching totally eliminates the MIDDLE MAN. I have no need that any man teach me. I have met a few other people who have had the same experience. What other people do is up to them and I feel no desire to convert anyone. What Jesus said about the blind leaders of the blind applies;

    KJV Matthew 15:14
    14. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

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  19. Hi, thanks for the comment again. I assume this is "Lee?" from prior comments?

    I liked what you said about having no need for a man to teach you. Vinson has been challenged on this point but his comeback is that apparently, he and his marionette elders are appointed as "teachers" within the body of Christ. Vinson then goes on to say that God has appointed these teachers and it is therefore our duty to pay heed to these men! He will rationalize his way out of anything, believe me!

    While I personally no longer hold to biblical authority, I do believe in a divine God. Like all men today, I also believe the writers of the bible got some things right and other things very wrong.

    Even Paul explicitly stated that he was writing some things that the Lord had not commanded. For me personally, the bible is best viewed in the light of the historical context in which it was written and I believe we must always remember that men wrote the bible. These men, like Vinson, bought their own biases to the table.

    As I have stated in another recent post, Vinson has branded me "anti-biblical" but that's just his cute little way of avoiding any arguments I bring up that go against his dogma.

    I happen to think the bible contains many truths. However, that does not make it infallible. It has been proven to be wrong on many occasions however, Mike Vinson worships the bible like a paper idol. That is a huge mistake in my opinion! He trips himself and his disciple up because of this fact.

    Thanks again for the comment. I admire you holding to your faith despite the abuses of the clergy.

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    1. Yes that was me in the last reply.

      I do not believe there is a need to preach the "gospel" as it was before preached by Jesus and the apostles. True doctrine is fulfilled by Gods love in His people. If you have Godly love it will fulfill all law and satisfy all doctrine. Love is the fulfillment of the law. This Godly love is in the Greek, "agape", and is the very nature and character of God and Jesus. God is in the process of re-creating man in His image and to display this image to us He sent His son the Christ, who was the express image of the invisible God, into the world. Of faith, hope and love, love is the greatest. John says God is love. Jesus said, love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. Vinson and all other preachers do not see this message. Gods love comes to us by His holy spirit and empowers us to change and grow in this Godly love. Love also passes knowledge. All the things we need are in Gods love and that is why we have no need that any man teach us. From what I understand God has taken over the calling and selecting and the preaching of the gospel and has removed all men from this task. I think Ezekiel 34 is saying this very clear. You and I both believe in a divine God and that He is love and wants us to love Him back. We no longer obey because of fear but because of love. This is why free will is required. We are to partake of the divine nature which is love.--------- Lee

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  20. Well said Lee. I agree with what you say above. Love is definitely the essence of God. We should all strive for this.

    Mike Vinson says he is loving but simultaneously, he will nit-pick over matters of doctrine to the 'nth degree, much like the Pharisee does in the gospel setting. He claims that to do this, is "loving" towards God and his fellow-man. I have no doubt that if we had a time-machine, the Pharisee would echo that party line to the letter!

    I hope your friend Jim Ramsay comes to his senses soon. Anybody who stays in the IWWB movement for a length of time will begin to take on the character of those he or she associates with. From my own personal experience, I became a legalistic narrow-minded, intolerant and un-loving. I have changed a lot since breaking ties with Vinson, all for the better I might add!

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  21. Have you ever looked into Astro-theology, and if so what are your thoughts concerning it with relation to the Bible?

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    1. Hey, thanks for taking the time to comment.

      I'm loosely familiar with astro-theology and I think there's a lot within the bible that seems at the very least, to indicate an influence on the text. 12 apostles, Christ as the son/sun, Satan as the enemy and associated with darkness… There's a lot there.

      I think the question is whether these are specific, or whether these are secondary influences upon the text. Hard to say! I'm no expert either.

      What I do know though are that many of the biblical stories are simply plagiarised from more ancient sources. Epic of Gilgamesh vs Noah's Ark for example, as well as the code of Hammurabi vs Mosaic law. Many authors of the biblical books are anonymous and additionally, the works OT works don't date back any further than approx. 600BC.

      I think Astro-Theology probably influences the text but again, hard to say if it's a direct or indirect one.

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    2. Thank you much, I think you taking a stand on the issues you have faced can help others who are going through the same thing. There is much to learn and admiting our mistakes and moving on can be difficult but is necessary. Thanks for your honesty.

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    3. That's very kind of you to say that. I really appreciate your thoughts.

      It most definitely is my intention to inform others and to hopefully, get those who are presently involved within IWWB to look hard at their own beliefs instead of repeating what they have heard from father Mike Vinson. I am amazed as well at the vitriol directed towards me from IWWB faithful, as though I alone can so somehow undo "the truth." If something is true, no man can undo it or downplay it. Truth stands on its own, and does not need a man to defend it.

      I also remind myself often that it wasn't that long ago that I thought I and Mike Vinson were God's "elect" and that many who had slighted me, would one day come and worship at my feet, as it taught in IWWB.

      It's only when you step back from your beliefs and critically examine your own spiritual back-yard that you can truly start to appreciate your own deception.

      Cheers :)

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  22. Well they way I see it is your mad because he said everyone else is wrong.Your comment
    Here is what Vinson explicitly states:

    "Orthodox Christianity is contradiction. Every single doctrine they have is a contradiction of the word of God."

    It is very clear you don't understand what he meant by that comment and you also don't understand what Orthodoxy is.In a nutshell he is referring to Catholicism and it's history and teachings.Basically Orthodoxy is rooted in history from the Romans.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy
    Yes they are wrong there bible tells them along with the king james version. It should be very clear to anyone when you put things befoer Christ (idols mother mary) then your not intrested in Christ. Right. The bible says theres no way to heaven except through Christ. Not idols or his mom only Him.The bible also says that God the Father can only forgive your sins. Why do Orthdox catholic priest take on the roles of god?
    While some of his points may be wrong on certain matters as is the it with other preachers he is spot on about this.

    What I will say to you is that God loves you unconditionally and always will. I hope that the things he has said or done will not turn you from Christ.
    Christ promised to you that he will never leave or forsake you.



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    1. Thanks for your comment. Let me address your points:

      Well they way I see it is your (you're?) mad because he said everyone else is wrong

      Incorrect. Ascribing emotion on my part is a fallacious move. Please don't go there.

      It is very clear you don't understand what he meant by that comment and you also don't understand what Orthodoxy is.

      Oh right, so now you and Mike get to define specifically what "Orthodoxy" is? I understand full well what orthodoxy is, and I also understand the origins of the Christian faith. Are you aware, for instance that the bible (the paper idol) that Mike and his followers worship is a Catholic invention?

      Before you even get into doctrinal matters, Mike's blunder is not knowing anything about how the canon of scripture was formed. Make no mistake, the 66 books of the western bible are a Catholic tradition.
      Now, Mike claims to understand the formation of the canon, but his knowledge is limited to the bible itself and he is poorly read when it comes to outside sources.

      Take a look here for some more info: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

      The simple fact is, Mike has many doctrines that are considered "Orthodox" and yet he also claims that no single orthodox doctrine is correct. He has shot himself in the foot. The man is an idiot, plain and simple. He has no interest in trying to right his wrongs, or of learning from his mistakes.

      As for you saying God loves me unconditionally, well you don't really believe that, do you? Clearly, the God of the bible and the God of Mike Vinson does not love unconditionally. He apparently wants to put people through the hell on earth in an attempt to change them into being clones of his mythical son Jesus.
      So that's not unconditional love. The entire concept of not accepting someone as they are, but having a secretive agenda to manipulate their life events into changing them, goes against your lofty theory of unconditional love.

      Seriously mate. Go try your weak arguments with someone else. And please spend some time learning how to form a sentence, and use grammatical conventions.

      All the best.

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    2. Jut to help you out a bit here, here is a copy and paste from a Wikipedia article. As I said before, your bible that you tote about, is a Catholic inspired text. The irony is that you and Mike rant against Catholic dogma but hold to a Catholic bible.
      _______________________________
      _______________________________

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

      The books of the canon of the New Testament were written mostly in the first century and finished by the year 150 AD.

      For the Orthodox, the recognition of these writings as authoritative was formalized in the Second Council of Trullan of 692, although it was nearly universally accepted in the mid 300s.[2]

      The Biblical canon was the result of debate and research, reaching its final term for Catholics at the dogmatic definition of the Council of Trent in the 16th Century, when the Old Testament Canon was finalized in the Catholic Church as well.[3]

      References:

      2 Pelikan, Jaroslav (2005). Whose Bible Is It?. New York, New York: Penguin Group. ISBN 0-670-03385-5.

      3 "Canon of the New Testament". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 1913.
      _______________________________
      _______________________________

      I would also add that Mike's cult group is usually the last step for folks before they realise that the Christian faith is a bit of a joke. No original manuscripts, anonymous authorship, contradictions in the text, virtually no historical attestations etc. The list goes on.

      I know of at least 4 people who are no atheists who were former IWWB disciples.

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  23. Hey buddy,
    I, too, had shunning from Mike... The funny thing is that I teach many of the same principles that they do... but I did NOT come to my understanding of God through organized denominational church, and I do NOT follow men, nor do I conform to their doctrinal demands. Listen to me. I know they hurt you. If I had not already experienced a vast array of myriads of banning and shunning by other orthodox teachers over the last 20 years, then it would have harmed me, also... but I am tough skinned now, and used to religious man's self righteous banter! Believe it or not... it actually helps you grow in the end!

    The best way to deal with them (the whole bunch), is to forgive them, and press on. Vengeance is mine; I will recompense. Bill L

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    1. Hi there Bill, thanks for the comment.

      I can assure you that I am not carrying around a burden of hurt from my time with Mike Vinson. Was I hurt at the time? Of course. But as I have made mention many times in prior comments, I am actually THANKFUL that events transpired as they did, because it was the catalyst that led me to question the bible itself, which in turn has led me away from the lies of Christianity.

      Although I harbour no ill-will towards Mike and have forgiven him, that in no way diminishes his present his arrogance and his condescension towards those who believe differently to him.

      I keep the blog active because there will inevitably be those who wake up to Mike and his tricks, and they may need to be aware of what has transpired previously.

      My desire, as a seeker of the truth, is to believe as many true things, and as little false things, as I can. I no longer hold to the Christian faith, because I don't feel there is any good reason to believe it.

      I'd be very interested to know more about why Mike shunned you, if you feel like explaining. You also say that you teach many of the same doctrines as Mike. What has been your previous history with organised religion? Are you a former World Wide member?

      Thanks and I appreciate your comment.

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    2. Here is what scripture has to say about what legalistic, religious men cause in the souls of God's people (people like you, and I):

      Romans 2:23,24
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      23 You who boast in the Law, do you dishonor God by breaking the Law [by stealthily infringing upon or carelessly neglecting or openly breaking it]?
      24 For, as it is written, The name of God is maligned and blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you! [The words to this effect are from your own Scriptures.]

      Because of religious men and the traditions of the religious world the word of God is made of no effect and causes men to be offended in God!

      I can guarantee you this: God doesn't care if you aren't person's natural birthday or sit and have Christmas with your family. As Scripture says,

      To the pure all things are pure but to them who are defiled is nothing pure...

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    3. Paul the apostle, (or whomever it was that wrote Romans) railed against "the law" of Moses, but at the same time, he also wrote and endorsed many things which should and should not be taking place within the Christian community.

      It's like saying, hey, give up this law, but here, use this one instead. Paul was as religious as those he spoke against, just in a different way.

      But again, I don't accept the words of the bible as authoritative. You probably know this already. In all seriousness, are you happy that your magic book contains instructions on slave keeping, teaches subjection of women, and seeks to elevate spurious untested claims of faith into something that is supposed to resemble a virtue?

      Anyway. I appreciate your comment. Be blessed

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  24. DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES! Lol!

    I was not raised in fervent FUNde religious atmosphere. My parents were both Methodist and I will basically was not interested in anything they had to say growing up (the Methodists that is - not my parents)!

    Think of me as similar to IWWB, but without the legalism and condemnation I apply all scripture internally not the ones that make me feel good, or above other people. I do not feel that another person's walk with God or their salvation is anything that I need to worry about. God can make all men stand or fall in the way that he sees fit all by himself, without any help from me at all. I do not have any trouble with the person saying they are an unbeliever or that they are agnostic - that is between them and God. As a matter of fact, when somebody tells me that they have not received religion from religious men, that gets me more excited than someone telling me they are a believer! Here is the story of exactly what happened to me. I'm sorry but it is long...

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    1. Appreciate your thoughts here Bill. You sound like a very genuine, loving guy.

      All the same, no matter how anyone spins it, I will likely never go near another bible or bible-inspired Christian community again - EVER. The whole thing with Mike Vinson was the last straw for me in terms of my investment in the bible.

      I now know for a fact that the bible is not the word of God. Add to that, that it is more than likely there never was a historical Jesus. It's all rhetoric and spin mate. You can buy into it if you want but for me, it's a closed chapter I won't be revisiting.

      Thanks :)

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  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Hi Bill, happy to check out the link but it doesn't appear to work. I did check out the main forum, and some of your writings.

      It seems a lot of what you're saying is on the same page as Mike Vinson - Christ is living in us working through our lives etc.

      I'm sorry, but I just don't accept that an invisible Jewish zombie named Jesus is anywhere in my life. There may have been a historical figure around whom the New Testament narratives were built, but as yet, there is scant evidence that indicates this to be fact.

      You seem to have made a huge investment in the "word of God." I'd encourage you to examine the origins of the bible, how it was formed, who wrote or didn't write it. And then ask yourself whether you can still accept it as being what you believe it is, if it were any other written work.

      Cheers

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  26. I have no judgment of you, whatsoever... I wish you all the best. I do not rely on the sscripture to know who we all are... I saw where we all end up, and it is wonderful beyond words (and we will all end up there, whether we want to celebrate Christmas, eat birthday cake, or go dancing on Saturday night).

    I do not go to church, nor do I expect anything from any human being. I am my only enemy. Thanks for listening, bud. Bill

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  27. http://melchizedekforum.yuku.com/topic/1080/THE-ENOCH-TRANCECONTACT-JUNE-23RD-1995

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  28. By the way... I had a dream about you. You are a good man. I am sorry for what you had to endure in this situation. I ask the Father to strengthen you-- whether you believe, or don't believe in Him. There is one other thing that the Lord is leading me to tell you. God does have an elect, and they are called and chosen for a special purpose, but that purpose is not to lord over the rest of the people. The purpose of being elected of God is to love his people and except them in whatever condition they are PRESENTLY IN... that is the true meaning of what it is to be elect. And by the way... You might want to read my writing "Did Jesus sin", because I think you'll see that my outlook on Jesus is not near the same as what the other guys teach. I believe that Jesus has become an idol to the house of Israel and a stumbling block between our relationship with God and His people. Just an observation not pushing anything off on you! I will talk to you again my friend thanks Bill

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    1. Hello back Bill. Thank you for your thoughts here. I do try and be a good person, and in-fact, I believe my character has improved a lot since I broke ties with Mike Vinson. I now accept people as they are, rather than attempting to shoehorn them into my perceived image of how they ought to be.

      I'm not an atheist, in case you were wondering. I do believe there is an outside force, or God that exists. My wife has many premonitions and dreams that come true. She also "knows" certain things that she can have no way of really knowing, and 9 times out of 10, they turn out to be right. Where does this come from? From God I believe.

      A turning point in my evolution came when I read Thomas Paine's work "Age of Reason." Paine rejected Christianity and the bible, but believes in a creator, and surmises that the "word of God" is written in creation, and that the more we study creation, the more god-like we can become.

      This pretty much sums up my own philosophy at the moment. I remain skeptical about a lot of truth claims but also, I am open to mystery and the notion of the unknown.

      Thanks for all the comments Bill, I'll take a look at that URL (now working) when I get a moment.

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  29. at least most of us excommunicated IWWBer's do give Mike credit for actually believing what he teaches...

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    1. Hi Marshall.

      Not sure exactly what you are meaning (or getting at) by your comment but yes, I agree that Mike is a very sincere but very deluded man.

      He really does believe the earth was made in 7 x 24 hour time periods, that axe heads can float, that donkeys and snakes can talk, that sickness was curable in ancient times with the blood of birds and incantations and that the entire planet flooded, with a pair (or was it 7?) of every creature stowing away on an enormous huge wooden vessel that has never been found and that also didn't leak or capsize.

      Mike Vinson is many things, and yes, sincere does happen to be one of them.

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    2. If the topic of sincerity interests you Marshall, I suggest you take a look at the website shariaunveiled.wordpress.com

      On the website, you can view extremely devout and sincere Muslims "who believe what they teach." You can watch them screaming "Allah Akbar" as they slice some poor bastards head from his shoulders with a kitchen knife.

      I only say this to illustrate that sincerity doesn't validate a claim or prove it to be anything of virtue. Hopefully you see my point.

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    3. agreed, by no means did i intend to insinuate a "good" thing...delusion is delusion, the reference being to the fact that there have been leaders of Christianity who knowing and willfully "SOLD" a barrel of lies for profit...

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    4. Yeah I agree Marshall. There are without a doubt, Christian leaders who engage in a full-time reality acting role in order to win themselves a pay check from week to week.

      Mike definitely isn't that guy, and like you say, he is genuine about his own version of the Christian faith. I do feel sorry for him, (to a point) in that he has felt the need to cut off so many people over the years (including his own sons and daughters in-law), all because they don't align with what he feels is the "truth."

      In that sense, he has done what ALL religious extremists do, in that they demand conformity before they can accept you, and if you question their version of reality, they take it as a personal attack. I have mentioned the term "persecutory delusion" on the blog before, and that's exactly what it is I observe with Mike Vinson.

      I do hope one day he comes to his senses but I personally can't see it happening.

      Thanks for your comment.

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  30. Love:

    Matt 5:43-45 are you doing this?

    [ Judging Others ] For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...

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    1. LOL. What sort of comment (or defence) is this? Is this an underhanded way of trying to get poor old persecuted father Mike off the hook - yet again? I'm always amused at the silly comments Mike's sycophants leave on here. They'll blatantly ignore his false teachings (the Revelation commentary etc.) and almost always, throw up some roundabout and trite one-liner that supposedly undoes me. Really?

      To answer your question "Cam Roines" if I decided to start my own religious cult and behave in the manner in which Mike Vinson has and does, then YES - absolutely, I would hope someone would have the decency to put my foolish teachings and borderline mental illness on blast in order to warn others. Isn't that the "loving" thing to do?

      All the best

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    2. Whoever has originated these blogs about iwawb, well done! You are very correct about their deluded doctrines.I will say thanks again for taking the boldness to speak against the brain-washings that this cult is doing to gullible followers. Most of their members are very naive, wayward and simple-minded. They ones I know are more depressed and suffering in silence. No wonder Proverbs 1:32 says that "For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them" Unlike you, most of their followers do not question Mike Vinson’s teachings. They just accept Vinson's deluded doctrines like fools or zombies! Thank God for giving you the initiative to deliver yourself from the cult - iwawb. Some of their leaders are supported to sleep even with their married ladies whose husbands/wives do not attend iwawb. They further manipulate these married followers to destroy their marriages by teaching that their unbelieving spouses are from Babylon. I am talking from experience. Members beware! satan himself uses the cult - iwawb to destroyed families, marriage relationships and separate children from parents. Their doctrines are not scriptural. iwawb's teaches false doctrines that do not represent the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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  31. Whoever has originated these blogs about iwawb, well done! You are very correct about their deluded doctrines.I will say thanks again for taking the boldness to speak against the brain-washings that this cult is doing to gullible followers. Most of their members are very naive, wayward and simple-minded. They ones I know are more depressed and suffering in silence. No wonder Proverbs 1:32 says that "For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them" Unlike you, most of their followers do not question Mike Vinson’s teachings. They just accept Vinson's deluded doctrines like fools or zombies! Thank God for giving you the initiative to deliver yourself from the cult - iwawb. Some of their leaders are supported to sleep even with their married ladies whose husbands/wives do not attend iwawb. They further manipulate these married followers to destroy their marriages by teaching that their unbelieving spouses are from Babylon. I am talking from experience. Members beware! satan himself uses the cult - iwawb to destroyed families, marriage relationships and separate children from parents. Their doctrines are not scriptural. iwawb's teaches false doctrines that do not represent the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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    1. Thanks for your comment and your observations about the followers of Mike Vinson's World Wide Church of God splinter cult called "iswasandwillbe."

      You are so right when you refer to Mike's people as "gullible followers" and it is sad and distressing to see people put their trust in this out of touch man from Georgia who has decided that his personal biblical interpretation is now the undisputed "truth" of scripture and that he speaks for God himself when he teaches a thing.

      You say: "some of their leaders are supported to sleep even with these married ladies who husbands/wives do not attend IWWB"

      Wow. Would you mind elaborating on this at all? I'd love to hear some more details here.

      I do know first hand that a rabid IWWB follower slept around on his wife (she was not an IWWB follower) with prostitutes and was also engaged in a relationship with another IWWB woman WHILE HE WAS STILL MARRIED.

      This woman came to me privately via FaceBook message and asked me what to do. I advised her to take her case to Mike Vinson, and see what he would do. I actually believed at the time that Mike would do the right thing and remove this guy from the fellowship, seeing as the "sin" this guy was committing was far worse than attending a birthday party or admitting he partook in his own wedding anniversary. These "sins" earned me a one way ticked out of IWWB so I figured, actually sticking your dick in several other women (who you weren't married to) surely had to be cause for removal...

      Well, how wrong was I? Mike Vinson did absolutely nothing. He frothed at the mouth with some scripture quotes but then refused to follow up and then simply stopped replying to this woman.

      I also know that Mike encouraged a member (ahem, now an "elder") named Pete Wilson to leave his family and filled his head full of garbage about him being "hated of all men" and that his family secretly despised him etc. This so-called elder Pete Wilson left his wife and children and then married into the IWWB cult with another woman he'd never met.

      Sometime before this, I set up an email alias named Dr. Cartwright and began emailing Mike (and elder Mitch Kuhn) about my marriage, and said that my (fictional) wife Peggy as struggling with the "days months times and years" doctrine. I asked Mike for advice in email and gave elaborate details about this fictional situation.

      Mike's advice was to leave my wife and family and to follow his teachings. He also said that my wife and family "hated Christ" within me and that I should be prepared to lose all (in other words, be prepared to have my family leave me) in pursuit of the truth.

      So yes, Mike's little "Georgia study group" (as his son Wayne has called it) is most definitely a cult and is a dangerous place in which to find oneself.

      Thanks for the comment again. Look forward to hearing you elaborate on those details if you have the time and inclination. Cheers

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  32. hi, how can i reach you privately to ask some questions? previous member...

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    1. You can reply to this comment with your email address. Don't worry, it won't be published online here (all comments must be "approved" before they are visible online) but I'll see the reply and I'll get in touch.

      Hope that makes sense. Cheers!

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