As expected, Mitch has pulled his information out of the proverbial cereal box.
In presenting his case to brother "C," Mitch directs the reader to this page.
On there, Mitch has posted audio of a guy named Dr Wayne Grudem. It took me all of 5 minutes to determine that Dr Grudem is in reality, another apologist masquerading as a biblical scholar. While I am sure Grudem is a nice enough fellow, he
The reason I can say this with a level of certainty, is that Dr Grudem foolishly attributes the Torah (the first 5 books of the Old Testament) to Moses. Frequently, throughout the first 5 minutes of his audio lecture, (note - right click and "save target as" to download) Grudem refers to what "Moses said."
Here is a brief, edited transcript taken from the audio lecture, starting at approx. 1:54 and going through to 4:38ish
The words of scripture are the words by which we nourish our spiritual lives. Moses said to the people, talking about the words that he had written so far, particularly Deuteronomy, but I think by implication, all of the books of Moses is no empty word for you, but your very life and by this word you shall live long, in the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. So um, God is saying through Moses by these words you shall live long in the land...
2:55 Moses said, you shall not add to the words that I command you, nor take from it...
4:38 Moses wrote additional works, the first 5 books of the bible...When Grudem speaks of the "books of Moses" he is in-fact, tipping his hat to the notion that Moses authored the first 5 books of the bible; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Dr Grudem explicitly states this at around 4:38 in the audio lecture, as transcribed above.
Why is this a problem? And what is it about this notion that is both problematic and fallacious?
Simply put, there are a number of overt red flags within the books themselves that give us clear indications that Moses did not author these works at all. Any careful reader, with a sharp eye, who is truthfully searching for "the truth," can easily determine that Moses cannot have written all 5 of these books. Or if he did author some of it, this work has clearly been redacted by a later author, or authors.
Despite these indications hidden clearly in plain sight, apologists like Dr Grudem and sloppy researchers who tout themselves as "the elect" like Mitch Kuhn continue to parrot this fallacy. You will note that Mitch says of Dr Grudem the following:
I do not agree with the doctrine of the man who did these studies, but he does a pretty good job of laying out the history of how we got the bible that we have todayA "pretty good job?" I honestly don't know how it is that Mitch can say that. It is obvious that Mitch hasn't checked his facts at all, and more to the point, he hasn't truly researched this subject at all. His knowledge of the topic is cursory at best, which, for someone who claims he is the "very elect" of Jesus Christ, doesn't stack up at all.
Below is a copy and paste of an article that has been up on my FaceBook Vike Minson page for some time. This article deals with authorship of the Torah and shows that Moses cannot have authored these works.
If Mitch Kuhn cannot see fit to get his information and facts on this topic correct, how can he qualify as "the elect" of Christ who will rule the world in the coming age? Mike Vinson says that he and his followers will one day wrest power from world leaders, using abilities such as moving at the speed of light. He and Mitch Kuhn arrogantly declare the world over via the internet that all of the church's doctrines are wrong and that not a single doctrine is correct. But yet, on these particular points of doctrine, they foolishly and unapologetically follow along with the rest of the orthodox Christian crowd. Unbelievable!
Many sincere Christians are under the assumption that the book of Genesis (along with the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) were written by Moses, at, or during the time in which the events themselves took place, purportedly within his lifetime. This assumption comes straight from "church tradition" and ascribes the anonymous authorship of many of the books of the bible to the characters of the books themselves.
A Wikipedia article notes that:
Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, but the books are in fact anonymous and look back on Moses as a figure from the distant past; some traditions contained in Genesis are as old as the United Monarchy, but modern scholars increasingly see it as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BCLeaving off "what scholars say" as most pious Christian do not consider such opinions valid, serious consideration and proper diligence must be made of several of the scriptures themselves which point to authorship by:
1 - A person OTHER than Moses.
2 - A much later time period than the one outlined in the book of Genesis.
Coming directly to the point, here are the scriptures in question.
- Genesis 36:31 - These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned
Only in 1 Samuel do we have a king ruling over Israel so this text points clearly to authorship to at least during or after this time period.
- Numbers 12:3 - Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men who were upon the face of the earth.
Don't you think that's a little preposterous? Would a truly humble person say such a thing ABOUT THEMSELVES?
It is obvious that Moses is being referred to by someone other than Moses, who holds this person in the highest regard and speaks of him as such.
- Genesis 14:14 - When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.
The bible itself in Judges 18:27-29 tells us when this area was renamed "Dan:"
Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. There was no one to rescue them because they lived a long way from Sidon and had no relationship with anyone else. The city was in a valley near Beth Rehob. The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there. They named it Dan after their forefather Dan, who was born to Israel--though the city used to be called Laish.Also, a similar account is relayed in Joshua although the same location is referred to as "Leshem:"
Joshua 19:47 - But the Danites had difficulty taking possession of their territory, so they went up and attacked Leshem, took it, put it to the sword and occupied it. They settled in Leshem and named it Dan after their forefather.Ignoring the ethical notions of attacking "peaceful and unsuspecting people," the facts are that the territory referred to as "Dan" in Genesis 14:14 ONLY came to be known as such until much later and so therefore, authorship of Genesis cannot be ascribed to Moses. During Moses lifetime, the area would have been known as either "Laish" or "Leshem."
Again, we see the hand of an author who is writing much later and "after-the-fact."
The account of the Danites taking possession of Laish and changing it to Dan is placed in the book of Judges, immediately after the death of Samson.
- Exodus 16:35 - The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a land that was settled; they ate manna until they reached the border of Canaan.
Moses never came to "the border of Canaan" and is said to have died in the wilderness, in Moab (Deuteronomy 34:5). Consequently, he cannot have known, much less written, what took place afterwards. Again, the tell-tale signs are here of authorship writing from a much later perspective.
The eating of manna extends itself to the time of Joshua, Moses successor, until the time they (the children of Israel) came to the borders of Canaan:
Joshua 5:12 - The manna stopped the day after they ate this food from the land; there was no longer any manna for the Israelites, but that year they ate of the produce of Canaan.
- Deuteronomy 3:11 - For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon?
Again, the author of Deuteronomy reveals himself as writing at a time much later in the historical equation. It was only during the reign of king David that Joab (David's commander) laid siege to the city. In-fact, it was during this protracted siege that David had his encounter with Bathsheba:
2 Samuel 11:1 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king's men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.
2 Samuel 12:26 Meanwhile Joab fought against Rabbah of the Ammonites and captured the royal citadel.Put simply, the writer of Deuteronomy refers to the existence of this relic, which is in Rabbath, as proof that this giant did exist at the time in which Moses lived and carried out his deeds. Again, I must ask how Moses could have written such a thing, seeing that he cannot have known what was in Rabbath or not.
The serious truth-seeker should take note of these instances and ask themselves whether they ought to take anything in these books seriously if indeed, authorship cannot be established one way or the other. Church tradition says one thing, and the text points in completely the opposite direction.
Clearly, the writer, whomever that may be, is relaying events that he was never present for. As such, he is simply detailing hearsay, or known by its proper name, "oral-tradition." The 3rd-person narrative only reinforces this fact; it is not Moses writing these works but rather, the historian of Moses.
Any Christian who is truly intent on obeying Jesus instruction to "love the Lord thy God... with all thy mind" (Luke 10:27) needs to at least consider these passages before they arrogantly declare that Genesis and the 4 other books ascribed to Moses were in-fact written by him. Should a Christian be promoting a lie? Isn't that a sin?
A critical approach, even to the bible itself, becomes necessary if the Christian truly wishes to obey the Lord in all things.